Guns

Federal HST Ammo Tests

/ hsoi / 2 Comments

After reading my post about “Pick your ammo, and move on“, long time reader and KR Training student, shared some data collection he performed a few years ago.

This reader went out and did some ammo testing and did a nice write-up with charts and pictures and such about how it all went. It was originally posted on another website, but no more. He sent me the original HTML and pictures and said I could repost it here if I wanted to. So here it is, only touched up for formatting and other HTML-isms to make it work here on my blog.

The Testing of 9mm Federal Premium HST Rounds

on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 in Dale, Texas.

The purpose was to get a better understanding of how these rounds would function in various guns and check out the +P versions. All the reviews found to date have tested the 147 grain rounds, however the 124 grain as well as both +P versions seem to have been left out. I assumed the +P were just too new for the 2001 to 2005 testing data I had found on-line so we set up a test to see what would happen!

Weight was measured on an American Weigh Scale AMW-100 (0.01g graduation). A 100g weight was used to calibrate the scale before measurements were taken. Expanded diameter was measured with manual vernier calipers. Gel calibration was done with a .177 cal steel BB. Muzzle velocity (fps) was recorded by a Gamma Master Shooting Chrony chronograph with ballistic printer.
The Ballistic Grade Gelatin was provided by Vyse in their “Complete Trial Pack” for $90.00 including shipping. All three 6 inch by 6 inch blocks were made in a single batch using 10% gel and 90% RO water (water was under 140F). The gel is sticky nasty stuff – and smells like wet dog.

Shots were taken 10 feet from the gel and all velocity measurements were at the muzzle of the firearm.

Block 1 – BB depth 3 11/16 inches – 604.58 fps – Used for 9mm Glock 19 Test (4.06 inch barrel)
Block 2 – BB depth 4 3/16 inches – 608.47 fps – Used for 9mm Kel-Tec Sub-2000 Test (16 inch barrel)

Block 1 shot from the left
 Block 2 shot from the right

Initial velocity measurements in fps

  115gn Remington (R9MM3) 124gn HST Federal Premium (P9HST1) 124gn +P HST Federal Premium (P9HST3) 147gn HST Federal Premium (P9HST2) 147gn +P HST Federal Premium (P9HST4)
Sub2000 1212.07 1279.19 1352.66 987.75 1047.86
Sub2000 1015.85 1257.13 1325.55 946.07 1041.02
Sub2000 1072.37 1287.35 1358.12 1003.81 955.25
Sub2000 1059.88 1261.98 1347.24 1020.57 1005.06
Sub2000 n/a 1264.35 1356.9 994.08 1040.93
Sub2000 in Gel n/a 1229.05 1337.56 1042.99 1053.15
Average 1090.04 1263.18 1346.34 999.21 1023.88
Standard Deviation 84.89 20.22 12.65 32.79 37.63
 
G19 1092.6 1146.08 1213.89 978.25 1021.94
G19 1066.42 1111.56 1210.37 999.25 1000.57
G19 1097.06 1139.39 1200.77 975.26 990.99
G19 1085.74 1155.49 1203.15 986.14 981.59
G19 1082.15 1159.03 1191.9 972.83 1006.9
G19 in Gel n/a 1139.18 n/a n/a 1003.31
Average 1084.79 1141.79 1204.02 982.35 1000.88
Standard Deviation 11.80 16.91 8.60 10.70 13.83

Into the Gel!


Pictured Above – 124 grain HST fired from a Glock 19

9mm 124 grain Federal Premium HST (P9HST1)

A single round was fired from a Glock 19 and a Kel-Tec Sub-2000 into Gel. Both rounds were found to have lost mass due to fragmentation (lost petals). All bullets had retained gel under the copper jackets along with a piece of a broken petal. The round from the Glock 19 retained 2 of the six lead petals while the round from the Sub-2000 fired bullet retained zero petals.

9mm 124 grain +P Federal Premium HST (P9HST3)

A single round was fired from a Glock 19 and a Kel-Tec Sub-2000 into Gel. Both rounds were found to have lost mass due to fragmentation (lost petals). All bullets had retained gel under the copper jackets. The Glock 19 bullet captured 1 of the broken petal against the copper jacket and retained 2 of the six lead petals. The round from the Sub-2000 fired bullet retained zero petals.


Pictured above – 124gn (upper) & 124gn +P (lower) fired from a Kel-Tec Sub2000

9mm 147 grain Federal Premium HST (P9HST2)

A single round was fired from a Glock 19 and a Kel-Tec Sub-2000 into Gel. They were all fully intact with a bit of gel under the copper jackets. The only noticeable difference between the Glock 19 round and the Sub-2000 was the additional gel penetration depth of just under 1 inch for the sub-2000. The size difference of the expanded 147 grain HST was noticeable when compared to the expanded 124 grain HST.

9mm 147 grain +P Federal Premium HST (P9HST4)

A single round was fired from a Glock 19 and a Kel-Tec Sub-2000 into Gel. They were all fully intact with a bit of gel under the copper jackets. The only noticeable difference between the Glock 19 round and the Sub-2000 was the additional gel penetration depth of just under 1 inch for the sub-2000. Again, the size difference of the expanded 147 grain +P HST was noticeable when compared to the expanded 124 grain HST (+P or otherwise!).


Pictured above – 147gn & 147gn +P (left to right) fired from the Kel-Tec Sub-2000


Pictured above – 147gn +P fired from the Glock 19

Recoil between the 124gn & 124gn +P was noticeable. You would be lucky to notice the difference between the 147gn and 147gn +P recoil. I really couldn’t tell in the G19 and another shooter using a Walther could just barely tell with the 147s.
The permanent wound cavities were very similar with the 147gn creating just slightly longer/larger destruction in the gel.

Recovered Bullets

Pictures

Comparing a 124 grain HST (left) to a 147 gain HST (right). The 147 grain bullet protrudes slightly more from the casing and there are longer & deeper cuts along the side of the bullet. The +P is marked on the casing as such while the non +P has luger on the head stamp.

147 grain HST
 124 grain HST

Notice how almost all the petals are missing from the 124 grain bullets below

I also shot a 9mm Ranger-T into the gel just for fun. It had good penetration (about 13.5 inches into block 2) and retained the sharp copper points. However it was small compared to the 147 grain HSTs and fragments from the Ranger-T were visible in the gel. I didn’t end up saving it but should have upon reflection. It was very similar in size to the 124gn +P shot from the Kel-Tec Sub-2000.

Some fun

I had thought about shooting into 4 ply denim however it had already taken a long time to set up and test the 9mm. There were some more fun things to play with so we ended up shooting a HP .22LR. Surprisingly good penetration (11 inches) and it actually expanded. A hollow-point .223 was shot from about 15 feet and did an amazing amount of damage to the gel with significant fragmentation.

Then we fired a .308 HP into the gel. Velocity was measured at 2880 fps. The gel block jumped above the table about 2 feet and it blew a hole about the size of a loaf of bread in the bottom of the table. The gel block split along its side. We did find a sizable divot in the dirt below the table. We can only assume that a fragment of enough velocity and mass broke away, traveled down and out of the block creating the hole in the table. Wow!

We then shot the last intact block with a .30-06 HP. This broke the table in half and ripped part of the supporting saw-horse in half. The back side of the block was in fragments.

Taking aim with the .30-06.

Checking out the damage!

This was a group effort! My thanks to everyone that helped with the testing!

Updated November 28, 2008

Thank you again to my reader for sharing that and allowing me to reprint the testing here!

KR Training November 2014 Newsletter — Including 2015 schedule of classes

/ hsoi

The KR Training November 2014 newsletter is out.

Biggest news from there is the 2015 class schedule is also available.

There’s already some great guest instructors coming, like Caleb Causey, Ben Stoeger, Tom Givens, SouthNarc, and Massad Ayoob.

The 2015 schedule does have some room for more classes, so if you don’t see a class you’ve been wanting to take, drop a line and request it!

I would say it’d be wise to plan for classes now and reserve if you can. Classes do tend to fill up, and you may need to plan ahead due to circumstances (e.g. ammo purchases).

BTW, for those of you that like to carry small guns in the summer? We’re going to offer our Defensive Pistol Skills Back-up Gun class twice this year. We believe this to be an important class. We KNOW you like carrying small guns in the summer, and shooting such small/pocket guns is more difficult than full-sized pistols that we tend to prefer to shoot. If you’re going to carry it, you ought to ensure you’re proficient with it. So now you’ve got 2 chances to take the class — take advantage of that opportunity. 🙂

See you on the range in 2015!

Goodbye, Ribo

/ hsoi / 5 Comments

A few days ago, KR Training‘s Director of Hospitality, Security, and Chief Student Food Inspector, Riboflavin T. Dog, passed away at the age of 16 years old.

When I first met Ribo, she didn’t care for me – probably because at the time I wasn’t much of a dog person. Over time and repeated visits, she warmed up to me. Probably didn’t hurt that I always had some food for her and always shared my lunch with her. In fact the past couple years she would always meet me as I drove into the range, as I got out of my truck, with a look of “And you have breakfast for me, right?”. 🙂  And of course, I did.

I’m not a dog person. Sure I own a dog and adore her, but I’m still not someone that likes dogs in general. I’ve found that it tends to stem not so much from the dog, but from the owner. Sure a dog is product of nature, but also of nurture. In Ribo’s case, it was evident she was loved and well-cared for, and lived about as good a life as a dog could ask for. It reflected in her demeanor. If I’m to like a dog, it’s because I like THAT dog. And Ribo was the #2 dog for me (only behind my Sasha).

Sweet memories of Ribo…

When she wandered into the classroom with something she found in the woods – I think it was the long-sun-dried back-end of a deer leg? And just plopped down and proceeded to gnaw on it and haul it around with her all day long.

How she was able to silently clear a room… if you were there, you know exactly what I mean. 🙂

Watching Karl hauling out the kiddie pool on the hot summer class days, so Ribo could splash around and stay cool. Yes, class had to wait for a dog.

Coming back into the range house and finding a mess in the kitchen, because someone threw something tasty in the trashcan. And you could always find the rest of things just outside the back doggie door.

I did finally learn to NOT keep my food – especially my beef jerky – on a surface less than 5’ high. Else, all I would find would be an empty package, just outside the back doggie door.

Having her on the range while classes were going on, just sitting back and relaxing. I never minded being asked to run into the range house to get or do something, because it gave me a quick minute to stop and pet her.

And yes. The above picture? I’ll never forget that sweet face.

Thank you, Ribo. It was a pleasure to know you.

Intellectual Honesty

/ hsoi / 2 Comments

I am a public health professional.

And I like guns.

This make me a heretic in American public health, where embracing firearms and the rights of gun owners is a gross violation of orthodoxy.

Vik Khanna is “public health professional, educated at the vaunted Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Hygiene and Public Health”. And, as stated above, he likes guns. He writes about it in “Why Public Health Needs a New Gun Doctrine”.

It’s rarely a good thing when everyone is lock-step and unquestioning of doctrine. He takes his field to task on their regard for firearms.

In 2013, the Institute of Medicine, at the behest of the Centers for Disease Control, produced a report on firearms violence that has been ignored by the mainstream media. The upshot: defensive use of firearms occurs much more frequently than is recognized, “can be an important crime deterrent,” and unauthorized possession (read: by someone other than the lawful owner) of a firearm is a crucial driver of firearms violence.

That report went away for political reasons. Translation. Nobody wanted to talk about it because it raised more questions than it answered.

They didn’t get the answer they wanted, so they suppressed it. Is that science? Is that really doing a service to the world?

But even more key is the fundamental assumption:

My public health approach to the problem of gun violence starts with the assumption that every gun owner is not a raving, irresponsible nut, but in fact a person of some seriousness who has a legal right to choose to own a firearm.

What assumptions do you start with? Have you stepped back and honestly examined your own assumptions? Have you questioned and determined where your assumptions came from? What is their founding? Is it based upon biased news reporting (which we should all come to expect is the unfortunate norm of today’s “news” reporting)? Is it based upon Hollywood? Is it based upon a couple interactions you’ve had, and you’ve extrapolated a couple exceptions to apply to everyone?

Or even worse:

As for the claim that gun rights proponents oppose the conduct of legitimate research, consider this. Many years ago, I asked a very powerful anti-gun academic the following questions: What proportion of gun crimes are committed by the lawful owner of a legally purchased firearm, and what percentage of lawful gun owners use their firearm in commission of a crime?  He said that he did not know, and that he would oppose conduct of the research to answer both questions.

If we’re going to have honest discussion towards finding real solutions to our problems, we must step back and examine our assumptions. We must be intellectually honest and not cherry picking what suits us or furthers our own blind agenda.

It’s not a Red vs. Blue thing

/ hsoi / 4 Comments

In the latest US Elections, the Republican party made some sweeping gains in terms of seats held, from the Federal level down to local levels. Naturally, in the days after there’s much posing and posturing about winning and losing, but before the election and after the election – and something that seems to exist regardless of election season – is how “gun rights” are positioned.

It seems people want to cut “gun rights” as a “red vs. blue” thing. That if you’re a Republican/conservative you are “pro-gun” and if you are a Democrat/liberal you are “anti-gun” (let’s leave us 3rd party folks out of this discussion for now). Granted, you do tend to find that the “reds” are pro and the “blues” are anti, but we really need to get away from such division and classification because “gun rights” are not directly correlated to “political party affiliation”.

Dr. Ben Carson, labeled a “Conservative Hero” seems to want to put restrictions on gun ownership. GOP candidate Mark Greenberg got an F-rating from the NRA-PVF.

Congressman Nick Rahall (disclosure: I’ve been friends with one of his daughters since high school), is a Democrat, but is a Life Member of the NRA and A-Rated by the NRA-PVF.

I’ve seen it in classes over the years. Many, if not most, of the KR Training study body, comes out of Austin – you know, that little “dot of blue in the sea of Texas red”. While you certainly get students of the “right-leaning” persuasion, we certainly see more than enough people who aren’t.

And let’s not forget the stereotype-busting I saw at one of the local indoor ranges back in 2010.

I know it’s cliché, but there’s truth in “united we stand, divided we fall”. If you care about “gun rights” then care about that and don’t let other labels that claim affiliation cloud the issue and your judgment, or divide you along colored lines. If anything, see it as a way to bridge the gap, to help us find something in common, to bring us together with a little better understanding.

Open Carry – Legal vs. Tactics

/ hsoi / 7 Comments

So Texas’ new Governor-Elect, Greg Abbott says:

“If an Open Carry bill is passed by the House and Senate, I will sign it into law,”

The past week I’ve seen many people on both sides of the issue responding to this pledge. One thing that I keep seeing is pro-gun people commenting on the stupidity of such legislation because open-carry is stupid, dangerous, or insert your reason here. The argument tends to be to keep open carry illegal because it’s dangerous tactics.

I think it’s important to separate the legality of open carry from the tactics of open carry.

People tend to prefer options. I’m sure when you’re presented with a problem, you don’t like being forced to solve it by A – you’d be happier if you could choose between A, B, and C especially if B and C are better options, yes? We seem to prefer choice (our consumer patterns demonstrate this), because it provides better opportunity for optimal solutions.

And so, if Open Carry (of handguns) becomes legal in Texas , that provides law-abiding Texans with more options.

But just because it’s legal doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the right and best option for solving a problem. There remain many reasons why concealed carry is a superior tactical option. Yes, some people may choose their options unwisely, but unwise decisions are nothing new in this world and the only solution there is for people to seek further education.

I know some will ask what I will do. Will I Open Carry? Generally speaking, no – I will continue to carry concealed. But having the option is something I will appreciate because there may come a time when it will be the better option and I appreciate having the choice.

When making arguments for or against Open Carry, do separate out the legal aspects from the tactics aspects. They are both valid areas of discussion, but we shouldn’t use “bad tactics” as justification for “bad laws”.

Why can’t we just ban “crazy”?

/ hsoi

A couple horrible stories in the news recently. But I think ones that are worth your consideration due to their greater implications.

One was about 4 NYPD officers attacked by a crazy man with a hatchet. Another was about a beheading of an Oklahoma teenager.

From what’s been reported so far, it seems what we’ve got are some random people with a heavy dose of “crazy”, attacking other people with an intent to inflict harm and death in a horrible manner due to their crazy.

Where are the calls for hatchet bans? or machete control? Because you know if these attackers used guns, it would become fuel for those bent on banning guns. Why aren’t we seeing calls to try to control this sort of violence? Is this sort of attack somehow less worthy of your political attention?

Or maybe perhaps it’s not about the tool/weapon. I mean, I think it’s pretty clear what’s in play here isn’t guns or hatchets or machetes, but plain old crazy.

So why aren’t we working to ban crazy? I mean, if bans are so effective at stopping things, don’t you think a law against crazy would be the most effective solution?

Of course we know there’s no reality in making that solution happen. Thus we look for other solutions, often things like “gun control”.

But let me ask you something.

Look at the NYPD hatchet case. What got things to stop? Was it legislation? Was it a ban on hatchets or the fact that murder is already illegal? Did they pee or vomit on their attacker? Was it talking to the attacker, be it begging and pleading, words of love and kindness, or stern words?

No. It was a swift and violent response on the part of the NYPD officers, using guns to stop the attacker. There was no ability to call for help; only the people immediately on site right there right then were able to respond.

Are guns, and swift, violent responses always the right answer? Certainly not! In fact, the overwhelming majority of problems in our world are not going to be rightly solved by the muzzle of a gun. However, there are some problems in this world that cannot be solved any other way.

For every solution you offer as an alternative, I ask you to consider the viability of that solution — with intellectual honesty. Would you equip those NYPD officers with your solution? Will your solution enable them to go home to their loved ones at the end of their shift? Will your solution be effective at keeping other innocent people on the NYC street from being brutally murdered? Will your solution effectively stop the danger, the madness, the crazy?

What if you were faced with the same imminent danger? If someone were charging at you wielding a hatchet with every intent on embedding it in your skull, can you honestly believe your solution will keep you alive? Are you willing to put it to the test?

A ban on crazy – just like most bans – doesn’t stop bad things from happening. Effective solutions may not always be palatable, but we must always be honest in finding and applying those solutions.

KR Training 2014-10-25 – DPS2/AT-2/AT-1A Quick Hits

/ hsoi

What a great way to close out the 2014 year at KR Training. Well, it’s not truly a close-out – there are still some things going on before the end of the year – but every November and December we go quiet for deer hunting season (how it goes when your range is in rural Texas), and that time is upon us.

But what a great way to end the year. We run this block of classes: Defensive Pistol Skills 2, AT-2 Force-on-Force Scenarios, and AT-1A Low Light Shooting only a couple times a year due to the needs of the Low Light class – need low light! and only certain times of the year work due to when sunset and Daylight Saving Time happens relative to a reasonable class time. It makes for a long day, but always a good one.

This one was especially fun because everyone that came for the morning class stayed for the entire day. Usually there’s people coming and going throughout the day, and we did have some people join us as the day went on, but the general timbre was people coming and staying. And it seems like everyone had a great experience, including Niki Jones of the Austin Sure Shots Women’s Pistol League.

I think the only down side of the day was the unusually hot weather – it got up into the 90’s! Come on… this is supposed to be the end of October! Weather was good, but this was just unusual.

Here’s my notes for the students:

Distance

Remember that distance is your friend. Use it to your advantage.

You have this wonderful tool that easily overcomes distance. Remember that we have to fight our monkey-brain tendencies to close in on the threat; yes that’s appropriate in some circumstances, but for most private citizens your key mission is to avoid, survive, and go home to your loved ones. Using distance to your advantage aids in that mission.

You can think of distance in the form of the Tueller Drill. You can think of using distance in terms of keeping away from corners, cover/concealment, and how it not only keeps you safe but lets you see more of what’s going on. You can also realize that most people can’t hit anything past 10 yards – but you can – so again, your advantage.

Tunnel Vision

We all fall victim to it. This is why we train for things like scanning to help break our tunnel vision. Don’t just focus on where you’re going, also be sure to see what else is around you (like that one reactive target beyond the back wall of the shoothouse that most everyone missed seeing until it was too late).

OODA Loop

I’ll just link to a good article on the OODA Loop from The Art of Manliness website.

Equipment Matters

Equipment matters. It only matters so much, and it doesn’t matter as much as Internet forum chatter makes it out to be. But it does matter and makes a difference.

I wrote an article “Pick your accessories, and move on” that covers this topic. Read it.

To expand upon that, hopefully you got a good idea of what matters in terms of flashlights. Strobes are great on the dancefloor, otherwise not so much. Switches and other controls matter too. Quality flashlights are expensive, but pay for themselves quickly.

Beer & TV

Remember: maximize your enjoyment of beer and TV.

Here’s something to read.

Or put it another way: is it worth dying for? Make sure you figure out beforehand what is and what is not worth dying for. Your standards are your own, they may not be the same as someone else’s. You don’t need to compare yourself or measure up to someone else’s yardstick here.

Fundamentals Matter

Ask anyone that performs at a high level and they’ll tell you it’s always about mastery of the fundamentals. This series of classes worked higher-level skills, especially the force-on-force requiring you to have to think and process so much information on the spot. This is not a time to have to think about trigger press and sight alignment, this is a time when those fundamentals need to be automatic.

While it’s good to practice the higher-level skills, don’t neglect the fundamentals. Drill them. Make them something you don’t have to think about, so it frees your brain to work on the things you have no choice but to think about.

Thanx!

So with the year basically winding down, thank you to all the students that came out. Many of the faces we saw this past Saturday were repeat students, and it’s so great to not only see the same people but to see how everyone progresses and improves.

Despite the weirdness of the political scene and the changes that came to the training industry this past year, it was still a good year. Karl’s been planning a lot for 2015, and next year should be really awesome too. Lots of cool guest instructors are already on deck, there’s good range improvements slated too.

We thank you for all your support and hard work, and look forward to seeing you again at the range. 🙂

 

An interesting legal study

/ hsoi

Eugene Volokh presents an interesting case about “Coming armed to see ‘an explanation from or discussion with the other person concerning the actor’s differences with the other person’“.

This is a rather interesting examination of laws and the legislative process. If you live in Texas, if you carry a concealed handgun or care about such matters from a legal perspective, or are just someone that finds the law an interesting – and sometimes strange – thing, it’s a good read.