Snub Nose

More with the Hip Grip

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Just did my first car ride with the Hip Grip.

Letting the hook go on the jeans, behind the belt, seems to be better. It lets the gun float around a little more so it can assume a more comfortable position. Else at least with this J-frame against my body, you end up with metal pressing into spots on your leg… like into nerves or veins and cutting off flow. Or just sticking into you and being most uncomfortable. Not fun.

Of course, the downsides are, as I said before, the gun sits lower and is harder to draw. Furthermore, the little bits of shifting around are not ideal. I mean, it’s good to have the gun in the same solid known established place so a draw is “without thinking”… you don’t have to go searching for it. How much of this shifting about is an issue? I have yet to determine that… need more time with it.

Still, it’s been rather comfortable. Sure I know it’s there, but it’s not too bad.

One thing for those wondering.

I don’t expect I’ll have issues with the gun discharging. I admit, it’s possible something could snag and work the trigger, but it’s a remote chance. Still I can’t help but think about it. Of course, a lot of guys would be worried about shooting their manhood. That’s not really my concern. I am more concerned with blowing a hole in my femoral artery. That’s what’s really in the line of fire. There’s that mental hurdle to overcome, no doubt.

The testing continues….

Hip Grip is here

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My Hip Grip’s arrived in yesterday’s mail.

The Hip Grip’s are one part of the Werner Carry System.

Of course, as soon as I got them out of the package, I put them on my S&W 442 to see how it worked.

They are hard plastic. The plastic does seem fairly durable and tough, but I must admit if I’m going to go this route I’m going to want to have another set in the closet as a spare. The portion that is the “hook” is only so thick, and while it’s fairly sturdy I’m sure with the right amount of force applied to it it can break. How much force? I don’t know because I’m not interested in finding out right now. I would think in daily/regular use it wouldn’t be a problem but who knows how much it will take for them to break. I don’t want this to give the impression that they’re cheap or brittle, far from it. Just that being hard plastic, there’s no “give” and well.. they are plastic, so there’s certainly going to be a breaking point.

The plastic also came out with a few burrs on it from the molding process. No big deal, really. Oh, one nice thing about the hook is it is wide, so those of us wearing thicker belts should be able to hook it just fine.

The grips are slim, mirroring the frame of the revolver almost perfectly. That’s great for concealment. I mean, when this thing is on my belt it almost disappears.Of course, it does mean there’s not much available to grip on, and with an exposed backstrap your palm will get to absorb all that recoil. Still, for the point and purpose of what these are for? It’s all good.

In terms of wearing it, it’s at the “appendix” position, somewhere around 1 or 2 o’clock. I’m still getting used to the feeling of it and finding just what works for me. I did notice something. If I hooked it on my belt, that positioned the snub in a way where it was angled “back”… the muzzle pointing more into my right thigh crease than straight down. This was great for the positioning of the grip and made drawing almost as easy as drawing from a strong-side holster at 3 o’clock. But with the muzzle angled back, it was a little uncomfortable for sitting. If instead I hooked on the pants just behind my belt, that allowed the gun to float around a little more, sink down a little bit, and find its own resting spot. That allowed it to be a lot more comfortable for me to wear, but now the grip was angled parallel to my belt. This was great for concealment and comfort, but now it’s a bit harder to draw. So, I’m still finding what works for me.

I’m actually surprised at how quickly I can draw. Sure it’s not as fast as a strong-side OWB holster draw, but it’s not as ugly fumbling about as say drawing from a pocket holster. Speaking of which, no problems putting this into my Desantis Nemesis pocket holster and working from there.

In the less than 24 hours I’ve been wearing it, it’s actually not that bad. Sure you’re aware it’s there, but as the saying goes “to bring comfort, not to be comfortable”. That said, you still don’t want something unbearable. I’m still finding what works for me, but so far this really isn’t bad. I’m liking it so far.

So, I’m still figuring all of this out, but I wanted to post my initial take on this. I’m still waiting for the T-Grip to show up. Once I get that, I’ll put it all together and see how it goes, including shooting. I’ll also be sure to get pictures up later on. Stay tuned….

Snub AAR updated – now with pictures!

/ hsoi

The AAR for the snub revolver weekend with Claude Werner has been updated. Added some pictures and a couple links to some other AAR’s written by another student.

Click here to go see!

Werner Carry System

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One thing that I had seen before but didn’t pay much attention to was the Werner Carry System. Reason being I just wasn’t sure about the Hip Grip. Would it hold securely? I don’t need it falling off my belt and sliding down my pant leg.

However, after this past weekend’s snub classes, I’m going to give it a try. It seems ideal for my needs in many ways. While I didn’t get to fondle a gun with this specific setup, a guy did have a snub with a T-Grip on it and I got to hold that. That made quite a difference in the feel. Plus this guy was very familiar with the setup so I was able to ask him a lot of questions and he was most helpful and detailed in his answers.

You see, the current Pachmayr Compac grips I have are great grips in terms of filling my hand, having a lot of tacky-ness, room for my pinky, and absorbing recoil. They’re not too huge for the gun either, but yes they are a bit on the big side and affect concealability. But with something like the T-Grip, it helps to fill the grip out in my hand. Couple that with the T-Grips (and given my concerns have been alleviated, all except for trying it myself) and I’m ready to give this a try as I think it will solve a lot of things.

I will start off without the Hogue grip and see how that goes. I’ll add that in later on.

T-Grip and Hip Grips are ordered. I’ll write more when the arrive and I can try it all out.

AAR – Snub Training with Claude Werner

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February 27-28, 2010 weekend, KR Training hosted a guest instructor. Claude Werner, one of the top snub revolver guys in the nation (IDPA Master-level shooter, 5 years as the chief instructor at the Rogers Shooting School, and someone that’s carried a snub for about 30 years), came and taught two classes specifically on the snub revolver.  This is my After Action Report (AAR) on the two days of snub-specific training.

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Videos: the snub, the anti-snub

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On December 3-4, 2005 at the American Police Hall of Fame in Titusville, Florida, a one-time event called “The Snubby Summit” was held. It was an event all about the snub nose revolver. The presenters there were a veritable who’s who in the snub world, such as Massad Ayoob, Jim Cirillo, Ed Lovette, Andy Stanford, Michael de Bethencourt, Claude Werner, Tom Givens. Others were there too, like SouthNarc and Paul Gomez.

Sounds like it was a heck of an event. Wish I could have been there.

But in place of being there, I discovered videos from the event are available online!

I’m still working my way through all the videos, but if you watch nothing else you must watch parts 6 and 7 — the Tom Givens segment. Tom comes into a snub conference and talks about how after 30+ years he gave up the snub in favor of a Kahr. While that in and of itself is a compelling talk, it’s all the other things that Tom talks about that are well worth your time to watch.

It doesn’t matter what you carry: a semi-auto, a snub, a pointed stick. Take the 20 minutes and watch Tom’s segments. There’s fantastic insight there.

While you’re at the POSA website, they’ve got lots of other interesting videos as well.

.38 Special load recipe – for plinking, using Berry’s bullets and TiteGroup powder

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Now that I’ve settled upon a .38 Special load, I thought it’d be good to give it its own entry for ease of finding it.

First attempt here. Results here. Chrono results and last word here.

This is a recipe for .38 Special (not +P). The goal is for a plinking/practice load. Something that doesn’t cost too much. I don’t want it to be a high power load so I can shoot a lot of them in a practice session or a class, but I also don’t want it too wimpy because I’d like it to still have some oomph so practice sessions don’t get too comfortable and have too much of a leap towards self-defense ammo.

The gun used is a Smith & Wesson 442 snub nose revolver with a 2″ (well, 1 7/8″) barrel.

I may no guarantees about this data. Use at your own risk. You assume all responsibility for yourself and your actions. Your mileage may vary.

Bullet — Berry’s Manufacturing Preferred Plated Pistol Bullet, .38 caliber, 158 grain, round nose (RN), double-struck (DS)

Powder — Hodgdon Titegroup, 3.5 grains

Primer — Remington 1 1/2 small pistol primer

Case — CBC (Magtech) brass, used

Cartridge Overall Length — 1.510″

Crimp — “light” Lee Factory crimp

In my testing that produced a velocity of 581 feet-per-second, which is reasonable for a 158 grain bullet and compared well against a Magtech factory load (158 grain LRN). Again remember, this is standard .38 Special NOT .38 Special +P.

Note as well, this is merely one recipe. Over time I may change it or just switch to something else entirely. But as of this writing, it’s what I’m using for my plinking loads.

Chronograph results – .38 Special and .223 Remington hunting load

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Went to the rifle club this morning with foo.c and his chronograph. Read his write-up.

Might as well dig into the results.

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Range Report – Reload Results

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Went to the local indoor range this morning, because I had collected enough “stuff to do” and work was a bit quiet this morning — perfect to slip away for a little bit and get some stuff done.

First, I had a scope problem, but I’ll write about that later.

I had 2 main reloads to try: .38 Special and 9mm.

.38 Special Reloads

This was shooting my first go at .38 special reloads. You can read the recipe here, but basically 3.5 grains of TiteGroup, Berry’s .38 Special 158 grain plated RN DS bullet, Remington 1.5 primer, CBC brass, 1.510″ COL. Note that I had no crimp on these, because I wasn’t sure about crimping on .38, especially with these Berry’s bullets.

I was curious about the crimps and spoke with someone at Berry’s about it. The basic rule with their bullets is nothing over 1200 fps and no heavy roll crimps. He said that on .38 Special, a taper crimp would actually be best with their bullets, but a roll crimp would be fine so long as it wasn’t a heavy crimp. For now I opted to go with no crimp and not futz with what I had already loaded to see how it goes.

I was shooting out of my customized S&W 442. My goal isn’t going for some uber-load, I’m not looking for 1/2 MOA accuracy, right now I’m just learning to reload so I want to just see how things go, see if I can make a load that goes bang and how it performs. It’s just a desire to learn, not necessarily find that ideal load.

First thing I noticed was the cartridges were difficult to insert into the chambers of the cylinder. Factory loads just slide in and out with no problem (they’re just a hair loose). But these reloads would get almost all the way in then I would have to push firmly to fully seat them. I’m not sure what caused that, and as I write this I realize I should have not fired all 20 rounds that I loaded so I could get the calipers on them and measure and compare to a factory load. But such is hindsight. Could it be from lack of crimp? Could it be due to case expansion? I’m not sure, but I will go back and reexamine my reloading process when next I reload .38 Special.

As for the performance of the load, it was mild. Sure it still had a wee bit of snap to it, but it really wasn’t bad. I’d see a small spark and a tiny bit of muzzle flash. Overall felt recoil was mild. As a factory reference round, I had some Remington UMC .38 Special 130 grain MC (L38S11). By comparison, the UMC had more felt recoil, a little more snap, a little more muzzle flip, and a lot more muzzle flash. So if that’s a fair reference point as factory ammo, my load was milder no question. Accuracy was fine… no heavy measuring of accuracy, but rounds went exactly where I put them. I do know I need to continue to get used to the sights on the snub… they’re just not Dawson’s.

Overall, I’m pleased with the load. Next thing I’d do is reload the same recipe but verify my reloading process and ensure a roll crimp. After I see how that goes, I’ll start to play with things like how much powder I put in and see how that goes. Once I settle on something, then I’ll start looking at accuracy and velocity. One thing I do like about a lighter load like this is you could probably shoot it all day, even out of a snub with small grips and an exposed backstrap, and probably do OK.

As a quick aside, I also shot 15 rounds of Buffalo Bore 20/20c. I did this because last time I tried them (just after getting my snub back from the gunsmith), I had one misfire. I wanted to see if it may have been that round or if it may have been the customized snub not liking the Buffalo Bore loads. All 15 went bang (and bang they did… oh thank you for better grips and a covered backstrap). So I think they’ll be OK in this gun, but of course more testing is always good.

9mm Reloads

My first 9mm reloads had a recipe like this: Berry’s 115 grain plated RN bullet, 6.3 grains Power Pistol, Winchester SSP, Speer brass, 1.135″ COL. When I tried them out I used a Springfield XD-9 subcompact (3″ barrel) and the results were snappy with a LOT of muzzle flash. Details here. So my next step was to try out that same load in my XD-9 Tactical (5″ barrel). I also wanted to do a load with TiteGroup to see how that would compare. I’d want everything between the two loads to be the same, save for the powder.

The TiteGroup recipe is as follows:

Bullet: 115 grain Berry’s RN DS plated bullet

Powder: 4.2 grains Hodgdon TiteGroup

Primer: Winchester WSP standard small pistol

Cases: used Speer brass

C.O.L.: 1.135″

So as you can see, the only difference between the two loads is the powder, 4.2 grains of TiteGroup vs. 6.3 of Power Pistol.

I used Speer Lawman 115 grain as a factory reference point. I brought both my 3″ and 5″ XD to the range. I also brought some of the true first reloads I did at Karl’s place, which I think have Vihtavuori N330 don’t remember how much.

The Power Pistol loads of course performed the same as before out of the 3″. I expected a slight change in performance in the 5″ but didn’t get it: still kinda snappy and flippy and a fair lot of flash. I’d say the 5″ was a little less than the 3″ but certainly not by much. Compared to the factory load, it was fairly similar in feel (the factory was a bit different, felt “stronger” but not as snappy) but the factory load had almost no visible muzzle flash by comparison.  Still performance seemed OK and I wouldn’t be to opposed to using the Power Pistol up because well.. I’ve got the powder, might as well use it.

The TiteGroup was another matter. I tried it first out of the 5″ gun and I swore I could watch the slide move. It was a really wimpy load. 🙂  The brass was ejecting consistently but only maybe one foot away from me. I swore I could feel the slide creeping along instead of flying in and out of battery. It was kinda fun, but the load barely worked in that gun. Switching to the 3″ gun, things felt a lot better, it functioned more like you’d expect. Overall the feel of the load was light, in terms of recoil. This also seemed to shoot a little bit cleaner than the Power Pistol.

At this point I’m really intrigued by the TiteGroup load. The above recipe could be fine for a light load, but I wouldn’t expect it to reliably cycle except in really light/weak-springed guns. Looking at the data on Hodgdon’s website, a 115 gr. LRN would use 3.9 to 4.3 grains of TiteGroup and a 1.100″ COL. Using a 115 gr. Speer GDHP it’d have a COL of 1.125″ and 4.5 to 4.8 grains of TiteGroup. So I have a little working to do to figure out my next step, but certainly it needs to go up from here.

Conclusion

All in all, I’m pleased. Pleased because I’m reloading my own ammo and it’s working. Plus I’m starting to see how things fit together, how things go, different characteristics of things. Just lots of things and soaking in all the information I can.

I have things to work on and change: for the .38 load ensure the loading process is not off and see about roll crimping, on the 9mm loads work with TiteGroup more.

And I hope Santa could bring me a Hornady Lock-n-Load progressive press. 🙂

My first .38 Special reloads

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I don’t have scads of .38 Special ammo, but I do have a fair lot of .38 Special brass. In my push to get myself into reloading, I’m trying to avoid buying factory ammo and instead putting that money towards reloading components (bullets, primers, powder, etc.) and reloading equipment. Now that I have my S&W 442 back from the gunsmith and with the snub-nose revolver class coming up, I figure it’s time to start working up a .38 Special load to use for target/practice shooting.

There are lots of .38 Special data out there, but I’ve noticed it tends to have a bias towards lead bullets like semi-wadcutters, or towards hollow-points like the Hornady XTP. This is generally all good, but I had picked up 500 rounds of Berry’s .38 Special 158 grain plated round nose bullets because they were the most inexpensive bullets I could find locally. This posed two issues for me: 1. plated bullets reload a bit differently, 2. finding a cartridge overall length for a 158 grain round nose bullet was next to impossible. Making it a bit more difficult, I was limiting my powder to Titegroup. Again, when I bought all of exodus’ reloading equipment the two pistol powders I obtained were Titegroup and Power Pistol. Being as I don’t know one powder from another, my current approach is to use the powders I have and get a good feel for them; after that, I can explore other powders. I was told Titegroup and Trail Boss were good for large volume cases, like in .38 Special. Furthermore, Titegroup is fairly fast burning, which would be preferred for a snub. So having Titegroup I figured that’d be the place to start. So if it wasn’t hard enough to find something based upon the particular style of bullet I was using, throw in wanting to use Titegroup, and throw in a desire to get data that provides a COL and well…. I failed in finding any sort of existing recipes.

Consequently, I had to come up with my own load. I looked at all the data I could find and tried to come up with something that was workable yet conservative. Here’s what I have:

Bullet: Berry’s .38 Special 158 grain plated round nose double struck

Powder: 3.5 grains, Titegroup

Primer: Remington 1.5 small pistol primers

Cases: used, headstamp “CBC – 38 SPL”

C.O.L.: 1.510″

Also note the dies I used were RCBS carbide 3-die set #18212. This doesn’t have a taper-crimp die. As well, the bullets don’t have any sort of cannelure, so there’s really no crimp here.

As of this writing I have not tried this out. I just loaded 20 rounds and will try them out next time I get to the gun range. There won’t be any chronographing, just seeing if it goes bang, puts the bullet where I wanted it to go, and any other data that I can obtain (e.g. muzzle flash, how sooty things get, felt recoil, etc.).

Hopefully I can get to the range soon. I’ve still got my other set of 9mm experiments to try too.