Oh t3h interwebtubes are rife with endless debate about gun stuff, from your choice of gun sucks to your caliber sucks and every possible debate in between.
One thing tho I haven’t seen much debate on tho is capacity… well, at least within the gun-toting community. Across the lines there are those that believe a capacity of zero is ideal, or if they’re feeling generous might think 10 is the most one could ever need. I mean, what reason could you ever have to need to fire more than 10 rounds?
When you look at the reports of police under pressure in gunfights, what is their ratio of hits to misses? Depending on the amount of training the police force gets and then the particular force, I’ve seen numbers ranging from 25-33%. So think about that. These trained professionals, and only at most 1/3 of the shots fired actually find their mark. You have to realize in a gunfight tho, that’s probably fair. Training takes you so far, then you’ve got adrenaline rushing, you’re moving, the bad guy is moving, you’re not going to bat 1000 under those circumstances.
So now let’s look at you, average citizen. You may not have as much training or at least as much exposure and conditioning to such pressure-filled situations. So let’s put things on the lower end of the spectrum at 25% hit ratio. That means 1 out of every 4 bullets fired will hit its mark. Now we have to understand that handguns are woefully underpowered and it’s unlikely that only 1 bullet will stop the attacker. Let’s say you’ll need at least two (but there’s no guarantee how many you’ll need). So that means you’ll need to fire at least 8 bullets. If you’re arbitrarily limited to 10 rounds, well… you might be ok.
Now note that few attackers act alone. Sure maybe you might only confront one person, but there’s usually a lookout or backup hiding off in the shadows. So now you’ve got 2 guys to deal with… that’d be what? at least 16 bullets needed?
And you can see where this math can go.
Now I admit, I’m just playing with numbers. But I prefer to err on the side of caution. You never know what you’re going to need or what you may be up against. Sure .45 ACP is a great round, but a lot of 1911-style handguns can only carry 8 of them, but a XD-45 can carry 14. Or you could get a XD(m) in 9mm and carry 20 rounds. .45 ACP sucks just as much as 9mm sucks just as much as .40 S&W sucks just as much as most any handgun round sucks. So, all sucking being equal, I like that 9mm allows increased capacity.
Wolves tend to travel in packs. How does it help the sheep if the sheepdogs can’t have all their teeth?
Stuff From Hsoi 
45-50 attackers? You’re going to be screwed with any pistol of any magazine capacity. Hopefully they scatter after the first couple drop.
I’d rather have 9 rounds of .45ACP in my Wilson Combat CQB than 14 rounds of the same caliber in any Glock, XD, etc. Plain and simple, it’s just easier to shoot than DA guns.
The main thing with carrying single stack guns, is that you should carry magazines and practice reloading, IMO.
With one mag in the gun, and two on my hip I feel as prepared as I can be against multiple assailants.
Having said that, I’m 100% against such laws limiting magazine capacity, they don’t add any safety to the public, the criminals won’t obey the law anyway, and they are unconstitutional.
Oh I agree that with 40-50 attackers you’re got far bigger problems. And on that same token, there comes a point “how much do you need to carry” becomes an issue. Gun can have so much capacity, then carry extra magazines for reloads… and really, how much do you need? What are you going to be up against? You have to draw a line somewhere, and there also has to be a point of realizing that this is a bigger problem and you need to just get out of there. The point of the article tho is making an extreme point that attacks aren’t always one-on-one, and it’s wise to expect multiple assailants.
But I know you like your Wilson and the bottom line is you have to pick the strategy that works best for you. If the Wilson works best for you, that’s the key thing. You’ll be more likely to perform better under pressure, and in the end that’s far more important than the equipment. There is no one right answer.
Still, you wouldn’t want 7 rounds in your Wilson, or less…. and if you could have 10 without a change in ergonomics you’d take it. 😉
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Greetings, Hsoi. This is my first time here.
I have to disagree with several comments you’ve made in this posting.
“Police are trained professionals”. Having spent 28 years carrying a gun and badge at public expense – retiring therefrom even – I can rain on that parade just a bit. Training is not a big priority with most agencies/departments. They talk like it, but training is time and money not spent on having officers ‘on line’. Administrators don’t like it. Most departmental qualification programs and courses of fire are designed to a) meet minimal standards according to whatever authority sets those standards (state or federal overseers), and b) qualify just about everyone possible in the least amount of time.
This is not to say all cops are incompetents. The training will most certainly allow troops to operate, dismount, clean and do basic maintenance on their issued pistol; and shoot it at least to the minimum standards mentioned in the previous paragraph. However, many officers I have personally known and with whom I have worked, didn’t know squat about any other firearm than the one they were issued. And I must confess, some officers with whom I have worked consistently qualified at minimal level and admitted they didn’t like guns and didn’t want to qualify at all.
Also, there are a number of officers like me who are enthusiasts. I knew how to shoot prior to ever being hired by a law enforcement agency (LEA). I shoot on my own time and so do others. We are probably the ones who bring the 30% hit rate up to that level.
On the other hand, most ‘average citizens’ who are shooters are far better shooters than the average law enforcement officer. Of course, there are those citizens who aren’t; but they aren’t the ones who typically choose to carry a defense sidearm. Even the least qualified citizen shooters who obtain concealed weapons licensing are as good – possibly better – as the disinterested law enforcement officers.
I’ll halt this short. Frankly, a 15 to 20 shot 9×19 pistol is an excellent choice for one who plans on missing a lot. Of course, there is the problem of all those misses to be accounted. As a friend says, “There’s a lawyer attached to every miss.”
If you wish to continue this, I promise I won’t post and run.
Oh I know how it rolls at many departments. Just because the job requires one to carry a gun doesn’t mean one can do much with it. The reason I said things that way was to make the point that your skills aren’t as good as you think they are, especially in pressure situations (and police are more likely to encounter deadly force situations than the average private citizen). Hits can be harder to come by when the fur is flying. Capacity can be a useful thing in such a situation.
Tom Givens, of Rangemaster in Memphis, TN has had almost 60 students involved in deadly force encounters. He’s been able to speak with them after the encounter and much is gleaned from the situation. Average number of shots fired? 3-4. Most shots fired in any encounter? 11. 3-4 is the average, but statistics are of little comfort when you wind up being the anomaly (such as the 11 shots fired). If we think capacity is such a bad thing and we can somehow predict how many shots we’ll need well… why aren’t we walking around with single shots? Or only as many rounds as we know we’ll need? I’m unable to predict the future so well, so I’m happy to have as much ammo on me as I can (15+1 in the gun, 15 in a reload on my belt). I don’t plan on missing a lot; I don’t PLAN on missing at all. But shit happens. I cannot know how many attackers I’d have to deal with. I cannot know what I’ll be up against. I’d rather have more ammo than less.
I understand about the ‘rather have more than I’ll need’ theory. I can’t disagree with it directly. However, (you knew that was coming, didn’t you?) I know too many LEO types and a number of citizen shooters who say ‘Well, I’m not such a good shooter, but I’ve got [insert magazine capacity here of between 12 and 18 or so] rounds and I can just keep shooting! They are planning on missing, whether they admit it or not.
In terms of shots fired, there are quite a few cases wherein a substantial number of rounds are fired with NO HITS on either side. The ones that are most documented are LEOs. The late Jeff Cooper had a ‘file’ of these events; I cannot cite the locations. However, the situation is nearly always the same. A traffic stop or officer initiated contact, the villain produces a gun and fires, the officer does the same and many shots are fired. Two such recorded cases had the officer firing nearly fifty shots – three full magazines – and producing no hits on the villain in either case. Happily, the villain in both events wasn’t any better and emptied his (her?) gun and departed. No report available on ‘collateral damage’; the department would be liable.
The infamous Amadou Diallo shooting in New York City in 1999 is a variant of this problem. Without going into all the ‘reasons’, four NYC plain clothes police officers fired a total of forty-one shots (just over ten shots each on average) and scored a total of nineteen hits. Had those officers been trained to shoot properly instead of being issued large capacity pistols, the hit ratio would have been better. I’ve heard reports of incidents of multiple misses from all over the country.
Basic principle: One can somewhat overcome a lack of skills with the proper mechanical device. One cannot overcome an ineffective mindset with a mechanical device.
You say you don’t know what you will encounter. I concur. Consider this: The situation is you are attacked by the local Hell’s Angels chapter of some twelve angry men. You are armed and competent. Every time you fire a shot, you hit a villain and every time a villain is hit, he crumples without further bother. How long does it take for number twelve to unlimber his weapon of choice and score a hit on you?
No matter what size magazine you have, there are conditions you cannot overcome. In the above case, my eight round capacity .45 might not stop any more villains than your 16 round pistol, but you will do no better than me.
I support your freedom to choose what you want to carry. The idea of curbing crime by limiting magazine size is sheer idiocy. However, I would challenge you to challenge yourself to become a better shooter – and observer.
The general premise of your argument comes down to level of proficiency, and that if one is going to work with a tool (doesn’t have to be a gun, applies to anything in life, IMHO), that one should know how to use that tool and how to use it well.
I agree completely. I encourage people that wish to use and carry firearms to seek training (could be with the school I’m associated with or someone else, I don’t care so long as it’s a good school), to practice regularly (especially dry fire), and to continue to seek training (I’m presently figuring out my plan for my 2012 continuing education). I keep forgetting his name, but he was a former head of Austin PD’s SWAT, been in a few gunfights, offered a bit of wisdom that in a gunfight you’re going to do about 70% of what you do on your WORST day at the range. So if your performance under pressure is going to dramatically lag, that hopefully gives one an idea of what a high(er) standard one needs to strive to achieve so that when the flag does fly your skills remain in a reasonable realm. If you have trouble staying within a 12″ circle, you’re going to miss under pressure. If you can train to hit 6″ circles, you’ll fare much better under pressure. Train, and train to a high(er) standard. Always push yourself to do better.
You are right that a lot of people look at capacity as a crutch… “spray and pray” is their approach. If you have only 1 round, chances are better you’re going to do all in your power to make that round count; whereas if you know you’ve got 50 or a 100, you might not feel such pressure to perform. To me, that comes down to one’s mindset. Me? Well… I believe you need to make every round count because yes, what if those odds are stacked against you? Whether you have 5 or 15, you can still run dry, you can still run out, the gun could still malfunction, you have no idea how things can play out; thus, it behooves you to be as effective as possible — this means not only speed, but moreso accuracy. Every round must count. You cannot afford unacceptable hits.
So don’t fret. We’re on the same page. Maybe not on personal caliber preference, but on all other things that matter. 🙂
Indeed, so it seems we agree somewhere deep.
I will confess my main thrust in making comments on blogs like this is not to much to convince or ‘correct’ the blogger as to provide the readers with an alternate view of the matter. That seems to have happened and therefore, I’ll shut up.
For the moment.
Hold hard.
Heh heh. 🙂 Thank you for reading. The only comments I don’t like are from spammers and assholes. Different or dissenting opionions, alternative viewpoints, etc. are welcome, so long as people opt to remain civil and are willing to discuss and try to further the quest for Truth and knowledge. I don’t know it all, and I’ve certainly had my stances and opinions changed over the years (e.g. I wasn’t always a gun person). One won’t get very far if we keep our fingers in our ears or are only willing to listen to the things we agree with.